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The Film Nuts Podcast
Your host Taylor D. Adams talks to artists, musicians, writers and others about their favorite films and shows, and asks them to share how they have been inspired or affected. Hopefully we can get to the root of why we love what we watch, why we’re crazy about a movie or *nuts* about a show…get it?
The Film Nuts Podcast
NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN with Tricia Aurand
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Calling all cinephiles and Coen Brothers enthusiasts! Join us as we deconstruct the breathtakingly suspenseful film 'No Country for Old Men' with our special guest, screenwriter and podcast host Tricia Aurand. In this thought-provoking conversation, we delve into the movie's non-conventional narrative structure, the instrumental role of violence in the film, and the impact these elements have on us, the audience. Tricia also provides a glimpse into her journey as a working parent and how the demands of parenthood have transformed her approach to writing.
Continuing our discourse, we delve into the existential themes embodied in the movie and their indispensable role in storytelling. We dissect the unambiguous conclusion the Coen Brothers present and how it compels us, the viewers, to grapple with nihilism. Hear why Tricia firmly believes that narratives should resonate with audiences on a deeper level. If you're looking for an episode that provides a mindful exploration of the themes steering the plot of a movie and their profound impact on the viewers, you're in the right place!
Our journey culminates as we reflect on Tricia's initial experience with 'No Country for Old Men'. We discuss the gripping atmosphere of the movie, how the creators manage to sustain suspense without relying on cliched cinematic tricks, and the critical role of Roger Deakins' cinematography in this. Discover how the characters and the storyline connect us to the film on a profound level, leaving us with an enduring sense of tension and suspense. Prepare yourself for an enlightenment-filled conversation you wouldn't want to miss!
Notey Notes:
All clips courtesy of Miramax.
Show theme by theDeeepEnd.
Squirrel artwork by Modungoa Sebokholi.
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I love every single little tiny thing about it. This movie, I think, is a masterpiece and it's probably perfect. I don't know if it's possible to plumb a theme more deeply than this movie does, because it's doing it on every level, while also being just an amazingly entertaining story. I think that that's what movies are designed to do and are supposed to do, and this just does it all.
Taylor D. Adams:Hi, I'm Taylor and welcome back to the Film Notes Podcast, a show about why we love what we watch. If I sound a little different and if things look a little different around me, it's because I'm in a hotel room. I'm in Los Angeles right now for work, but I still have a really great episode for you all to listen to and watch. Have you ever gotten mad at a film for being so good? Like, how dare you movie what gives you the right? A visceral reaction like that is a good indicator that whatever you're watching is affecting you. The dialogue, the visuals, the meaning all these things draw us in and when they're done really well, almost never let go.
Taylor D. Adams:The Coen Brothers film No Country for Old Men, based on the novel of the same name by Cormac McCarthy, is a dark twist on Western tropes with a pessimistic outlook that does not sit well with some moviegoers. However, for my guest today, this film balances the art and science of filmmaking so well it makes her angry. Tricia Aurand is a screenwriter and podcast host who was blown away from the first time she saw no Country for Old Men in a packed theater, as someone who both writes and discusses films, like on her co-hosted podcast. Beyond the Screenplay. Trisha is one of the perfect people to find both the entertainment and message behind this movie. Tricia and I talk about how No Country for Old Men diverts narrative structure, what defines a dad movie and the purpose and intent that violence can have in films. So hide the money in the air vents. Here's Tricia Aurand talking about No Country for Old Men on the Film Nuts podcast.
Tricia Aurand:I am out here in LA. It is an interesting season in the town, so everybody that I know is out striking most days of the week. And yeah, it's kind of a wild time to be a part of the screenwriting industry.
Taylor D. Adams:Yeah, and you've been out there, right, you've been striking.
Tricia Aurand:Well, full disclosure, I have a baby and a toddler, so it's been a little bit hard. I took the baby out once and he actually did really well, but he was super young. He was eight weeks old when I took him out there to the picket line and it was, you know. He was doing his bit and he didn't write anything. So he's really standing in solidarity with us.
Taylor D. Adams:Yeah, what an ally. That's awesome yeah he really is.
Tricia Aurand:Pencils down Babies everywhere.
Taylor D. Adams:That's cool, yeah, so how is? I asked this to a lot of people who are new parents, basically on the show, or people who are like expecting parents. Like how are you finding time to do what you need to do for your work, doing what you need to do as a parent, or doing what you need to do to keep your sanity? Like, how do you balance it all?
Tricia Aurand:Oh, help you get help. You know, my toddler goes to daycare 15 hours a week and the baby has. We have that same amount of childcare. So while the toddler is at daycare we have sitters that come and hang out with the baby here at the house and then I tuck myself away in an office and try desperately to get at least 15 hours of writing done every week. It's not a lot.
Tricia Aurand:I'm writing really slowly on the things that I'm working on, which is frustrating for me, but it is absolutely essential to my mental health and not to mention our household finances, so you know it becomes worth it in making that a priority. I also have like things that I do, you know, after the kids go to bed of like just working on things for fun or, you know, decompressing.
Tricia Aurand:I'm lucky enough that getting to watch movies is also part of my job, so, and getting to podcast about movies is also part of my job, so I do get to find time for those things also here and there, and it's like sitting down to watch a movie and feeling like, oh I'm, I have learned something from this. Experience is also like very lucky where I get to decompress, but I also get to feel like I'm accomplishing something.
Taylor D. Adams:Are you? Are you someone who can sit down and just like start writing Like what's how prolific, would you say? You kind of are.
Tricia Aurand:I mean, I write a lot and I have written a lot. Do I? Can I sit down and start writing more so lately, now that I have kids and that has become absolutely imperative?
Tricia Aurand:I, you know, I have 15 hours of childcare and that is it.
Tricia Aurand:And so I cannot waste a minute of it. So I plop down in front of my computer and I do immediately start writing, and that was not my mode that I was in before I had kids. Listen, the amount of stuff that I can get done now, when I don't have any children with me, is astounding. I wish I knew that I had this capacity back in my 20s and early 30s. It was like you know, I would sit there and I'd be like, well, I maybe wrote like five pages today and it was pretty good.
Taylor D. Adams:Yeah, you felt good about that.
Tricia Aurand:Yeah, I sat down and like got into the mode and whatever. No, absolutely not. Like it is, we are off. You know, it's like a starting gun goes off when I hand the baby over to the sitter and I'm like where are we go? But I'm, it is working. You know, I'm getting, I'm getting things written. You just, you just do what you have to do.
Taylor D. Adams:Yeah, I would. Yeah, now that like time is of the essence. Basically, you're like, I got it, got to go.
Tricia Aurand:Yeah, it is not an ideal way to work.
Taylor D. Adams:I will write yeah.
Tricia Aurand:And I do get distracted. You know, I'm working in my home office, which I'm very lucky to have, but it's not soundproofed, like I can hear when the baby is crying in the other room, and it is not easy to just sit there and do nothing about that fact, even when, because I can hear the sitter is struggling or whatever. You know, whatever is melting down which things do. And so it's like you kind of just have to say you know, this is the time I'm doing this thing and I have constructed my whole life around that idea and so I'm going to sit here and do it.
Taylor D. Adams:I have to ask you this what is a dad movie? Explain it to me.
Tricia Aurand:Okay, so I guess I'm talking. When I say a dad movie, I mean like a movie of our father's generation. So I assume you're a similar age to me. You're probably born in the 80s.
Taylor D. Adams:Yeah, 87.
Tricia Aurand:Great, yeah, great, you're a little younger than me, but not by much, and yeah, so fathers in our generation are boomers and it's like you know, and we're also both white people, probably from similar ish like socioeconomic background. So it's like, what does a white boomer middle class dad like, and it's, you know, war movies and 70s comedies at, like Mel Brooks and like Robert Redford, political thrillers like Alan J Pacula stuff and anything that like scratches sort of a history itch. So like my dad's really into the Napoleonic Wars and like naval battles and it's that, it's all of that. And that's definitely where I get my love of movies from is from my father, and so if that's not a typical thing for a girl to like, then I don't know how to help you, because that's just what I grew up like watching and reading as well. So like I've read all those master and commander books and you know the ratio of lower novels and all the James Bond books, and like I don't know, that's just my whole jam.
Taylor D. Adams:So Western's definitely fall in that category. Big time Dad movie.
Tricia Aurand:Yeah.
Taylor D. Adams:Yeah, have you shown your dad no country for old men, or has he seen it on his own?
Tricia Aurand:That's a really good question. I don't know if he has. I would be really curious to hear what he thinks about it. My dad is a Coen Brothers fan, but he's a very he's. He definitely leans more toward their comedies, like he really loves Raising Arizona. It's probably one of his favorite movies and it's one of mine too. He even really loves Intolerable Cruelty, which, like hardly anybody likes that movie or would name it as like their favorite Coen Brothers movie, but my dad loves it. So he just is into their like wacky comedies. I don't know if he liked Hail Caesar, but you know what he probably would have like if he had seen it or that's like just the goofy or the comedy the better in his mind.
Tricia Aurand:I don't know how he feels about no country.
Tricia Aurand:I remember talking to him about it a lot in the year that it won Best Picture it was about in 2007 and then, you know, won four Oscars at the Academy Awards that spring winter and I remember talking to him about it quite a bit and about how much I loved and respected this movie and yeah, I think it's just one of these things that can really unnerve you.
Tricia Aurand:I think a lot of people didn't know what to make of it, and there's no question that ultimately it ends in this very sort of dark, nihilistic place, and if that's not something that you can appreciate, I don't know if you would ever come back to it. But it is pretty sparse, is what I'm going to say. It doesn't leave you a lot. It doesn't leave you like a lot to sort of hold on to or it just it kind of just chews you up and spits you out in a lot of ways, and I think it's, I think it is infinitely rich for analysis. But if analysis is not your jam and you're like wanting to watch a fun movie, I don't know if no country for old men is going to be the thing for you that you want to watch over and over again.
Taylor D. Adams:It's not a feel good.
Tricia Aurand:No, not at all. So yeah, I think there's. I think there's that and my dad is very much in the enjoys being entertained camp of people who appreciate the way that they appreciate movie movies. It's not that he is not like a big analyst or or like couldn't engage in movie on that level, but that's not what he goes to movies for. He goes to movies for a good ride.
Taylor D. Adams:Right.
Tricia Aurand:Which you know. Dad movies often are there. Yeah they're a literal ride on Western or on a submarine or on a, on a tall ship, you know.
Taylor D. Adams:So why do you love no country for old men?
Tricia Aurand:Oh, I'm so glad you asked me. I love every single little tiny thing about it. This movie, I think, is a masterpiece and is probably perfect.
Tricia Aurand:The Coen brothers have, you know, a lot of control over their films. They basically have complete control over their films. You know, they edit them themselves and obviously write and direct them themselves, although this one is adapted from a book, obviously the novel by Cormac McCarthy and they just the precision with which they put their movies together, and especially this one is so refreshing and again just offers a wealth of like technique and literary sort of elements that you could just dive into forever, as well as a really harrowing, gripping story with really compelling characters and a very fascinating theme and a complete Like I don't know. I don't know if it's possible to plumb a theme more deeply than this movie does, because it's doing it on every level and again, while also being just an amazingly entertaining story. So I think that that's what movies are designed to do and are supposed to do, and this just does it all.
Taylor D. Adams:I think for Anyone listening to this who is familiar with you and your work, they would definitely say that Tricia Arand is all about theme for films. Is there like, is there a? Do you okay? You appreciate this movie on a bunch of different levels. What, for you, what's a distinction between a theme Working and you, as Tricia, loving what a movie has to say.
Tricia Aurand:Mmm, that's interesting. Well, first of all, I want to say that just like a disclaimer here, which is that I don't think I'm normal Way that I watch movies is normal, like I don't think there's any wrong way to watch a movie, though, unless you're just not paying attention to it.
Tricia Aurand:That Right, and that's that's kind of what I'm trying to say, which is that, for me, theme is like what I come to film for, or it's like it's the most Compelling thing that I come to film for, like I really love being entertained. I love action movies, I love romantic dramas. I, you know, I love movies in just about every genre and I can appreciate what they're doing. However, I the movies that like stay with me and that I think are like perfect films, are the ones that are also Exploring a theme with a great amount of depth. And I think, in order to do that, you can't just do it in the dialogue or, you know, do it in the Costume designer, whatever the like most surface level is. You have to do it all the way down Into the very depths of what the story is, and that goes, you know, that goes all the way as deep as genre, that goes all the way as deep as like form, and so I think that when a film has been put together with great care Toward exploring the theme, that's when the theme is working really well. Now, I think that there are certainly movies that do that, that Are exploring, perhaps, themes that I don't connect us strongly with. So, like this, the theme of this movie I find to be very existential. The Coen brothers are very much about like in their work they often explore like God and like justice or karma, or they explore the nature of story itself, which is often concerned with how things end or the meaning that we take away from things. That's what theme is. So there's sort of this self-reflexive quality to it which again is, I think, perfect for film, and of course, this all comes from Cormac McCarthy's novel too. But, like, when you're telling a story about storytelling or about the human desire for meaning In within the context of narrative and narrative structure, that's something I'm gonna connect to every time, because I've built my whole life around trying to do that with my life, and so that's why a movie like this is gonna get me every time.
Tricia Aurand:Now I do think there is a, especially back in 2007, I I thought that you know there's this really deep nihilism to the conclusion of this movie, as I mentioned earlier, and I probably didn't All the way agree with it at the time like I don't know if I would have called myself a nihilist back then, but darn, if I am now like it.
Tricia Aurand:Just there's a lot. I think that there's a lot here when you can kind of see the Coen brothers have, throughout their filmography, come back to some of the same kinds of thematic questions, and I find that this movie draws a very, very strong conclusion and does not leave a lot of room for wiggling in the interpretation. I think that it is very clear in where it lands On some of these existential themes, and so I, I just, I really respect that, you know, without being it does all of that, without being trite or offering nihilism as some kind of like Not that it ever is, but like an easy answer. Right, the characters are really wrestling with like what if this all means nothing? What if there is no justice?
Taylor D. Adams:What if?
Tricia Aurand:you know, it's all just chaos and inevitability and there's literally nothing we can do about it, and the movie is like Correct, it is great job, everyone, everybody, go home. So if that's but, but again, not, it doesn't arrive at that cheaply. The movie wrestles with it, really struggles with it the whole time and puts you as an audience member through that exact same thematic debate.
Taylor D. Adams:Why is I mean you're kind of touching on it a little bit here, but but to you, especially with Movies or even with anything that you work on, whether it's on a screen or written on a page like why is theme so important for you?
Tricia Aurand:Hmm, I just think that there's, there should be a reason why we're telling a story, any given story, and which means it has to sort of like speak into life, at least ideally again. Like I like seeing stuff blow up, I like seeing beautiful actors kiss each other, like I like these things, they are entertaining, you know.
Tricia Aurand:So I'm not saying there's, there's no point to a movie that doesn't do theme or doesn't do it very deeply or something, and escapism is a really valid reason to want to go to a dark theater and sit there for a couple of hours. There's nothing wrong with that at all, and there's nothing wrong with, like, not inquiring too deeply into the themes that you're also being presented with. Like I think if you just like this movie Because it's a really thrilling western, I think that is a really good reason to like it, and we don't have to talk about nihilism. If you don't want to, you know whatever. Like that's fine. I'm sure that person exists, probably.
Tricia Aurand:But at the end of the day, I think that stories are capable of reaching us on levels that they are, that they are basically the only thing that's capable of reaching us on those levels. There's something really deep in our psychology that responds to a well-told story. That's about something real. It's about these questions that we wrestle with all the time as humans, and there's almost nothing else that can unlock that part of our psychology Besides narrative. And so if you have the opportunity, as a storyteller, to do that, then you should do it and Like don't, don't miss out on a chance to engage with something real, because that's how you change somebody's life. That's sitting and watching your movie. If they're gonna give you a couple hours of their time in their brain space, in their physical body, in the temporal universe we occupy and you have that one chance to say something to them, you should say something to them about something real in their life, I think hmm, so, yeah, I really like that.
Taylor D. Adams:So this like realness, this is wanting for something to mean, something like did that? Is that something that you were like Taught? Was there a story that hit you in a way that you're like there has to be purpose, like we're? I mean, can you trace that back at all? Do you think?
Tricia Aurand:The short answer is no, I don't think so. I mean, I'm, that's cool. No, it just has it occurred to me, like a very, very long time ago, that I'm just sort of wired this way. You know, I basically have wanted to be a writer since I Was very, very, very young, like we're talking pre-school aged young like, and so yeah, what was, what was pre-school Trisha's story?
Taylor D. Adams:What was her favorite story to write? Do you remember anything you wrote or drew?
Tricia Aurand:Oh, yeah, I mean, well, I definitely was writing like little books and stories. There's one from second grade, so that's not pre-school, but that's like a story about a kitten who lost a ball of yarn down a hole and she tries a few different ways to get it and then she eventually succeeds and and the themes don't go up right, yeah, yeah, well, there's narrative structure there right there's like conflict.
Tricia Aurand:There's a hero, there's a clear goal, there's like different twists in the middle. I mean it's right there. But yeah, and in my favorite movie around that time would have been Sleeping Beauty, which was like my jam. When I was really young, like probably three and four, I watched that movie every day. So Walt Disney's, you know the animated classic, but yeah I mean, and that was just like I would write plays for the neighborhood kids and I would direct them and we would put them on.
Tricia Aurand:And yeah, I wrote a novel in the fourth grade, like it's just it's just the way that my brain is wired, but that's not to say that there isn't also study involved, like, yeah, you know, I I did end up going to school for screenwriting and then I was also an English teacher for many years and so I spent a lot of time finding ways to articulate and teach like narrative structure and theme and analysis, as well as as well as writing itself. So that's definitely a big part of it, I think. I think I remember, you know, when I was it was probably when I was less than ten years old I had gone with my dad to see a movie and I wish I remembered which one it was. But I was like, you know, dad, I think there are movies like some kinds of movies are just trying To be fun to watch and other kinds of movies are trying to be like about something and like trying to like, you know, change you or say something or you know, I don't remember what I said mean something probably.
Tricia Aurand:And my dad was like hmm, you're right, he's like what do you think would be like? He's like do you think movies can be both? I was like yeah, I think that the really good ones are both. Um, and you know that was not something that I had had the language, that anyone gave me the language for. It was just something that I noticed from from watching movies myself. So I think that part of what I, why I do what I do in terms of podcasting and when I was teaching and Now when I still I volunteer with youth, a lot is giving people language to talk about film and and TV books on those levels where it's like why does this particular bit really strike you? What is this particular character's journey or transformation? Why does that make you feel changed? Why does that make you cry? What is the language that we have around describing what we go through when we sit through or experience a story?
Taylor D. Adams:So, going back to this movie, what do you remember? Your first experience watching this movie? Do you remember what this setting was?
Tricia Aurand:I do, because I was thinking about this, because you sent me a list of questions and I was like, oh, I guess I have to think about this thing now.
Tricia Aurand:Um, I was in San Francisco with my college roommate and I'm gonna call it a double date although we were just with a couple of guys that, like I think we're old friends of her shoes from the Bay Area and so it was like her couple of her high school buddies that I'd like met maybe once or twice when I was home with her visiting Her family from college, and so we were out with these couple of guys I'm gonna call it a double date because there weren't enough seats in the theater and Of four, four seats together, so I ended up sitting with one of these guys, like near ish to the screen, in a totally separate place in the theater from my roommate and whoever, whoever else we were with, and so I was sitting next to somebody.
Tricia Aurand:I didn't know that well, but I do remember like Everybody in the audience, including me and him, were like really vocally reacting to watching this movie, because it's such an experience and was such an experience in the theater at the time, among people who had never seen it before I Mean think about the way that the tension is drawn out in some of these scenes and sequences.
Tricia Aurand:Yeah where it like, you're just very sure something really bad is going to happen Immanately, but you don't know exactly when or what. Like even just that opening scene where Moss finds the drug deal gone wrong, right, and he's just walking around, he's got his, his gun, his rifle at like basically hip level and he's just like walking slowly through the thing and then the camera like sort of lifts up and pushes in on that shattered window, the passenger side window of one of those trucks, which it turns out the guy that's in there is the one who asks for water, right, but like you know, it's shattered so you can't see what's inside and the camera kind of pushes in on it. You're just the first time you see this. You are so sure that whatever is in the cab of that truck is just gonna be a horror show, and it kind of is, but not in like a jump scare way. But you don't know that going in the movie is just stretching that moment out slightly longer. Then it needs to. Enough to make you uncomfortable.
Taylor D. Adams:You speak English. Where's the last guy? Oh, tomorrow, I'm right. Last man standing, there must have been one where to go. I reckon I go out the way I come in Sierra la puerta I love, I know Lobos.
Tricia Aurand:The other thing is that when things do happen and there are these explosions of violence and chaos and all this stuff, they often just come out of nowhere or they escalate without giving you a sense of like Cinematic they're, they're very cinematic and they're very well-paced, but they're not cheapened by like music coming in or Like a lot of cinematic language to signal to you that shit's about to get real. It doesn't happen that way, it just Things happen. So when mosque goes back out to the same site to take that guy water, he keeps looking back at his truck on the ridge like. He looks back at it a couple times and you can see it Gorgeously out wide.
Tricia Aurand:Roger Deakins is ridiculous. Oh yeah movie, yeah, it's, it's. It just makes me angry. It's so good, but like Moss's, moss's truck is parked up on that ridge right and there's that gorgeous blue light behind it. Yeah, looks back at it like once or twice and you're just like, yeah, you're moss, yeah, your, your truck is there, moss, you're fine, like, and he goes to take that guy water.
Tricia Aurand:And then there's that one time he looks back up there and there's just another truck up there on that ridge right next to his, and you're, oh shit, like he's in so much trouble, but the full weight of it like falls down on you as it's falling on moss right of like how bad this is about to be and the way it's shot. It's all like in again a cheaper Version of this or like an a less studied filmmaker might have like gone to a close-up of the guys that are in the other Truck and they like slashes, tires and they which they do, right. But it doesn't go to a close-up. It keeps you in Moss's POV. You can see the truck on the hill. You hear way off in the distance the sound of those tires pop.
Tricia Aurand:Yeah, you're like oh shit and then the lights come on, you're like, oh fuck, we're so fucked, like it just falls on you, the way that it falls on moss, and so that's the, the kinds of sounds that I am making now as Reacting to that thing. That's how the theater sounded. Like, as those, as the different levels of like he is so screwed, as those like descend and therefore the sequence is escalating. Right as the sequence escalates, you're just reacting because there's the movie isn't reacting for you, like you have to react because it's just Letting you stay in Moss's POV and without, without doing any tricks to make you feel it harder than you already feel it. It's so the movie Trusts the audience so much and if you're really with it, like you're, the only option is to like, really respond in the moment and then, yeah, like it again.
Tricia Aurand:There's a million example, like a give, of this, where the, the filmmaking is just like Just telling the story like as flatly and plainly as possible. It feels like. It's like I get again. It's very cinematic and there's no fat in it at all. It's like edited within an inch of its life. Um, but it's so Visceral, the experience of going on this journey with Moss, where he's barely making it one step ahead out of this in every scene.
Taylor D. Adams:Do you? So people are reacting to this movie throughout the whole thing in the theater pack. Oh yeah, how do everyone ever react when it was over? When to when I walk?
Tricia Aurand:Oh, I don't know, man, I, I don't remember like how the theater generally reacted. I remember I was like frozen in my chair because that was back in the days when I Was very obnoxious and always insisted on sitting through the whole credits of a movie that I really liked.
Taylor D. Adams:That is not obnoxious, that is. That is what should be done for everyone who sees a movie.
Tricia Aurand:Thank you, thank you, you're with me. If it was a movie that I really liked, especially one that I felt like had a lot to absorb, like a lot of meaning to absorb, I just wanted to sit there and watch the whole credits and so I know that that's what I did or wanted to do. I don't remember if the dude I was with was into that or not. I can't, I have no idea. I will say to his credit he's obviously not a person I know anymore, and barely then, but he was like with me, man, like he. We were like we weren't talking during the movie, but he was like in the same way that I was like really reacting and everything. That's cool, um, but I I do remember immediately understanding that what I had seen was a masterpiece and that it was a masterpiece because what it was doing was theme to its very core and I had never really seen an example at that time and I've seen very few sense of the very form, structure of the movie doing theme.
Tricia Aurand:That doesn't happen very often because audiences don't like it or they don't respond very well to structural like, to their, their expectations in terms of structure being subverted and used against them. Audiences tend not to like that because we have, even if you don't have the words to describe like narrative structure, you do have an innate sense of it, built up from a lifetime of of being told narratives. And so when narrative structure itself gets broken, you we go oh what, what? Why would you do that? And we like assume there's something wrong with it, instead of it's doing that on purpose to make us uncomfortable or, in this case, to drive home a theme. So but I I remember walking out of the theater and being like oh my god, they broke the narrative structure to do the theme. To do the theme, holy shit. And and like I was like saying that to people. I was like, did you see what they did? Oh, my god, they did it. Those last four scenes. They what like?
Taylor D. Adams:And we're other people with you or they're like you're crazy.
Tricia Aurand:I don't remember exactly at the time, I think, as I think as dialogue about the movie went on I you know it had been out several months and most people had seen it. At that point I was able to get more people on board with me, but I I do remember just Immediately what they had done to me clicked instantly of like, oh shit, like you just Did, that you just ended your movie that way with those last four scenes, that each one of those last four scenes Breaks your expectation of a narrative, like what is supposed to happen in the narrative, in a very specific, very uncomfortable way that is driving at the theme. And I knew that that had happened to me and I will. I also. Just, I mean, my breath was absolutely taken away and I was like I will never forgive the Coen brothers.
Tricia Aurand:For and I, I, I think about this every time I watch it. The shot where sugar walks out of Carl-A-Jean 's house and look at. God damn boots. I will never forgive them Because it was all I was holding on to. I was like Carla jeans got to make it out of here. Man, like I need somebody. I need somebody to make it out of here and it should be Carla Jean.
Tricia Aurand:And then he walks out and he looks at his shoes and I just remember like my heart breaking in two and I was like no, no, and you did it like that, you showed it to me like that and I hate, I just hate you forever for how good it is like and and also because of how sad it makes me. I Mean it's so masterful.
Taylor D. Adams:Okay, hold up, don't go anywhere. This is a super painless interruption, I promise. If you're looking for a great way to help support the film nuts podcast, please consider becoming a patron. Like Richard, he decided to back the show on patreon after our Twin Peaks episode with Jace Lake up. Richard loves Twin Peaks and really appreciated just how much Jace loved Twin Peaks too. When you become a patron, you get lots of cool perks like early access to episodes and behind-the-scenes goodies. Plus your small monthly amount will mean big things for the future of the film nuts podcast. So thank you in advance for considering becoming a patron and thank you, richard, for becoming our latest backer on Patreon. For more information, please check out patreoncom slash film nuts. Okay, now back to the good stuff. Every time I've watched this movie, I have felt differently about it.
Taylor D. Adams:The first time I watched it, yeah, I was in the theater there weren't a lot of people there one of their friend of mine and At that point I had just discovered that like Film was like an art form and there was like there was more to it than just like watching stuff blow up because, yeah, like I love movies all my life, I just go to have fun, like I didn't really think deep into anything. And then when I got to college, started taking like courses about it, I was like, oh, there's more going on. Then I think. So I remember seeing it and I remember not completely getting it, but knowing that it was something special, and then I showed it to some family members and they didn't dig it and I think that made me go oh, maybe I don't really like this.
Tricia Aurand:Were you seeing? There will be blood that year.
Taylor D. Adams:I did. I also see them me. It felt similar. I felt similarly about that. I was like I don't know what I think of this, but I think it's special, like there's something about it that is important and that I witnessed something that was a High form of some expression. But Recently, the more recent times I've watched no country for old men. I'm like, okay, everything is looking for me. Now I understand what's going on. This is, this is awesome. Like I, I, you know I had it, I own it. I bought it a while ago because I was like, oh, this is a good movie, yeah, I'll buy this. And the more I watch them like, oh fuck, this movie is brilliant. Like it's not, it's not a good movie, it's fucking great movie, like that's how I felt about it, the more I watched it, yeah, and I remember what really got me into this movie was sugars, cattle, prod, weapon of choice.
Tricia Aurand:I was.
Taylor D. Adams:I was in, I was like what is this thing? And I was like oh yeah, I have never seen anything like this.
Taylor D. Adams:Howdy. What's this about? Step out of the car, please, sir. What is that? I need you to step out of the car, sir. What is that for you? Would you hold still, please?
Taylor D. Adams:That is one of my hit. The first use of it is one of my favorite scenes. What is your moment or scene from this?
Tricia Aurand:Because I there's the really violent bits of this I just I I don't watch them, actually, like I, or I just like look up at the corner of my screen because they have so much Um.
Taylor D. Adams:What's the threshold, like what, what, what, what, what, what are the scenes where you're like and I can't watch this one?
Tricia Aurand:I Always look away when he busts into the room, the hotel room, and like blows three, three of those guys away or whatever, four of them, however many. I just look away Right when those like gunshots hit Because they're. It's pretty graphic and I really don't like that one with it. The cattle slaughtering Device that first one, like I mean, I I appreciate what it's doing, but I just don't watch that exact moment, although I did watch it this time. I typically don't, I'm just like blink long or something, and this time I like that.
Tricia Aurand:Yep cuz I know right what it is right like. I have to be basically memorized, so it's fairly easy, not.
Taylor D. Adams:And it happens in a split second.
Tricia Aurand:Yeah, although I did watch it this time and it wasn't as graphic as I remember it, although it still is pretty graphic for the record. I think that it violates in movies like this I feel is like deeply in service of the story and of the themes and I don't think it's handled in any way that is like excessive. So I think it's I think it's told it just the right amount of like Violence on screen, like I think you need this amount of blood on screen. I don't think you need more and and and, as I said, I think some of the more devastating moments of violence and death in this movie are off-screen or like Shown, very like from a wide distance or whatever.
Tricia Aurand:So you know, carson Wells death is not on screen per se and I still find it really upsetting Because we don't need to see that for it to convey what it needs to convey.
Tricia Aurand:So you know. But then when you also have the scenes of like in terms of like actual blood and gore or whatever, like you have the scenes of both sugar and Moss like patching themselves up and we see a lot of their injuries, I think all of that is really carefully done and is is doing something important, and so I don't. I don't necessarily have a problem with it. I think violence in movies extra disturbs me when it's gratuitous or doesn't feel like it's actually in service of something specific. That being said, there's a run of Dialogue scenes in the second half of the second act that I think are sort of like all my favorite taken together, because they're just so oh god, the movie just really hits a stride. I mean, it's so good all the way through, but after the midpoint encounter where Moss and sugar meet at the Eagle Hotel, yeah, great scene and wound each other.
Tricia Aurand:It's an amazing sequence. There's like four dialogue scenes in a row that are just like some of the best dialogue ever written and delivered. I think I don't know. There's the one where I think probably my favorite one is the one where Moss wakes up and Carson Wells is sitting right next to his bed with flowers hospital yeah.
Taylor D. Adams:It's called a transponder. I know what it's called. It won't find me again.
Taylor D. Adams:Not that way not.
Taylor D. Adams:Anyway, took me about three hours. Yeah well, I've been mobile. No, you don't understand. What do you do? I'm retired. What did you do, welder, settling me a tag? Any of it, if it can be welded, I can weld it. Cash turn. Yeah, I mean braze and say braze, pop metal. What did I say? Were you in them?
Tricia Aurand:Yeah, it's a man.
Taylor D. Adams:So was that. So does that make me your buddy?
Tricia Aurand:Josh Brolin and Woody Harrelson's performance, especially Woody Harrelson's performance in that scene. I just there's just like everything to me, like I, I think it's so pitch-perfect and and how quickly they kind of go back and forth where he's like what do you do? I'm retired, what did you do? I was well, I'm a welder. He's like Meg Tig is like, if it can be welded, I can weld it. He's like braids did I say braze? Like it's just, it's so Like I don't know it's great.
Tricia Aurand:And then the moments where that dialogue has that rhythm to it, and then you'll get a moment where Woody Harrelson stops and just goes. You don't understand, like, and it's, you know, really trying to convey the situation that Moss is into him, and I just think it's so, these two incredible but like understated performances and the dialogue is like a blast just to listen to. And then the one right after that I think it's right after that when Bell goes to see Carla Jean and he tells her the story about the, the farmer who, like, hits the, you know, hits himself accidentally in the shoulder with a bullet.
Taylor D. Adams:You know, charlie's got one all trust up, all set to drain him and the beef comes to, starts thrashing around. Six hundred pounds, very pissed off livestock, you're excused. Well, charlie grabs gun there, shoot the damn thing in the head. With all the swinging and the thrashing, it's a glance shot. Rick Shays around, comes back, hits Charlie in the shoulder. You go see Charlie, he still can't pick up his right hand for his hat. The point being that even in the contest between man and steer, the issue is not certain.
Tricia Aurand:Tommy Lee Jones's performance in this whole movie is like Unreal it's.
Taylor D. Adams:I could listen him.
Tricia Aurand:I can listen to him narrate anything all day with that performance, like it's so good oh. Yes, yes, even just the opening sequence where he's has that monologue over the sunrise. You know, that, those landscapes, I, every word of that is amazing and I do want to say I have read, because you're gonna get, if I don't say this, all of your listeners are gonna be mad.
Tricia Aurand:Okay but I have read Cormac McCarthy's novel several times. I am aware of the fact that most of the dialogue in this is lifted verbatim out of Cormac McCarthy's novel and that the Coen brothers did not write it all themselves. I do know that and that is part of the reason, if not the whole reason, why it is so very, very good. You know the Coen brothers have said yeah, took two of us to write this because one of us had to hold the book while the other one typed. I Do know that this is a very faithful adaptation of the novel. Yeah, and I do really like the novel also. So just putting that out there.
Tricia Aurand:But yeah, I think that it's. I think the dialogue is so lean and so effective and just like no word of it is wasted and at the same time, no line of it is like mundane or feels like a line of dialogue You've ever heard before in any movie, ever like yeah, and part of that is like the studiedness of the world and like the colloquial isms and the characterization and the way that the characters express themselves. That feels so unique and Specific. And then part of it is also again just how spare it is and it just gives you barely enough. I Love it.
Taylor D. Adams:Yeah, the, the exchanges for me, I think yeah, you touched on a kind of colloquialism like it makes everything that's happened in the movie action-wise seems so Ordinary, because it goes along with how just people talk to one another.
Tricia Aurand:Right and I was struck this time. I love Wendell, the deputy.
Taylor D. Adams:Mmm Garrett, don't hunt. Yeah, this movie, I was so happy to see him.
Tricia Aurand:He's so good too, but I you know it's interesting the characterization of that, that character, because when he and Ed Tom Bell go out to the the side of the drug deal the first time you kind of expect him to be less hardened, right like sort of less seasoned kind of a, you know, a younger Dumber, like more maybe naive.
Taylor D. Adams:It's like an archetype, yeah.
Tricia Aurand:Because we're used to seeing that, but I love the way that it's written and played where he actually is very astute and Not easily phased.
Taylor D. Adams:Oh hell's bells, they even shot the dog. Well, this is just a deal gone wrong, isn't it? Yeah, here's to a bit of glad. You can tell you what calibers you got there sheriff non-millimeter, a couple 45 ACPs. Somebody unloaded on that thing with a shotgun. I come here reckoning to Kyle, think banana, I don't know. Supposedly Kyle won't need a Mexican. These boys appear to be managerial. I Think we're looking to more than one fracas.
Tricia Aurand:He is like the right person for a Tom Bell to talk to, because he's not stupid. The Coen brothers are so good with their supporting characters and Wendell's no exception. None of the supporting characters are here, like they're all so good.
Taylor D. Adams:If you had to speak of these characters, like if you had to identify with one of these three characters, who would it be and why? Ed Tom and. Anton or the well-in.
Tricia Aurand:Yeah, I'm just gonna say, Anton sugar. No, I'm not.
Taylor D. Adams:Hey, I think there's some validity if someone said that if they're personally, if they're, I mean they're not a serial killer, actual psychopath. You know some people are like the believers of like the chaos thing, like it's the nihilism part, like that.
Taylor D. Adams:I could see that happening.
Taylor D. Adams:That's all I'm saying.
Tricia Aurand:Yeah, I. Understand if someone says that to you on your show and the interview immediately.
Taylor D. Adams:I'm like oh, I gotta go.
Tricia Aurand:That's all the time we have for today. I'm, I'm definitely a lot more likely. Well in, then I'm top out like at Tom Bell is is designed to represent you know something and that's that's a deeply held belief in like order and justice. And I, I wish, like I respect him and I like wish that that was the world. I wish I lived in Ed Tom's world. But even Ed Tom doesn't live in Ed Tom's world, which is what the whole movie is about him realizing.
Tricia Aurand:And I like, I think, I think, I Hope that I'm like the well-in who just takes the world as it comes. You know he is, he is an opportunist. He does not do the right thing, you would say, by taking the money, but who's to say right, if that is All right, or a wrong thing? He doesn't hurt anybody to get it right. A lot of us draw the line there and he doesn't hurt anybody to get it and he just walks away with it and the only people that he hurts are people who are trying to hurt him first. So I think for a lot of us it's definitely a he's mostly on the, mostly a quote-unquote good guy that we would consider to be, but he certainly is not again the like Absolute by the book, kind of a law follower, and so I, I think, which I Again, I think that the well-in is just sort of and Pretty good at taking the world Exactly as it is presented to him, and I think that's a smart way to be, even if it's not very noble, I think.
Taylor D. Adams:I would want to identify with a well-in, but I think in actuality I'm, probably am more like a tombill. I think because, because I think it's that feeling of being overwhelmed by what the world is. I think that's that's where it gets me. Like Watching this now, like in the year 2023, I'm Seeing things a lot more from Ed Tombell's perspective. I'm like man, I get it like I'm tired too, like I'm, you know, and he you know. He doesn't come out and say he's like scared, but his actions indicate he's he's watching a step, like he doesn't want to take any Unnecessary risks, like he wants justice but at the same time, is not like Really gonna like go full, like vengeance or vigilante mode on it's trying to.
Taylor D. Adams:He's just kind of he's almost he's done, he's basically done with this with being being his because he's identified as a sheriff or highway, texas highway. Is this Texas highway?
Tricia Aurand:He's a sheriff.
Taylor D. Adams:Okay, sure, and so sheriff in Tarrell County. That's what it is there. Oh, yeah, that's what it is, and yeah, I was like I get it, tommy Lee, I get it, man, I.
Tricia Aurand:Mean I. He is very clear to your your point earlier about he's not scared. He's very clear in his opening monologue that he is not afraid. Right, he said well, not afraid for his life.
Taylor D. Adams:The crime. You see, now it's hard to even take this measure. It's not that I'm afraid of it. I Always knew you had to be willing to die to even do this job. But I don't want to push my chips forward and go out and meet something I don't understand.
Tricia Aurand:He says the line is like a man would have to put his soul at hazard. It's not. You know, I very much Feel that like To to really look full in the face of what the world is, the chaos and the inevitability Of, like death and sun's violence, all of this stuff Is to. To look at that with your eyes open is to put your soul at hazard, and I sympathize with not wanting to do that and or or just hoping that it's not that way. Right, like I feel like that's that's where Ed Tom lands, where he, you know, when we hear about his final dream and he describes the light in the horn that his father is carrying the, as he sees it in the dream and he's like you know, I saw that my father was going on ahead and I knew that he was gonna make a fire Out there and all that dark, so that you know it would be there when I got there. Basically, that's a comforting thought, right, that's a hope, and we see Ed Tom like he.
Tricia Aurand:Really it takes a lot to push him to let go of that hope. For that he goes back to that hotel room. He certainly does not have to, right? He goes back there to try one last time to do something, even though Moss is already dead. He's like there's, there's one more thing I can do, and I can go back to this hotel room and See if I can find the guy or find the money or do something. And he does try it and he puts his life at risk and puts his soul at hazard to go do that and there isn't. It turns out by dumb luck that he nothing comes of that action that he takes and he even is like very unwilling. He doesn't seem like he takes the decision to retire lightly either. It seems like it weighs really heavily on him. But again he just Eventually gives up. And you know, the conclusion of the movie is and then I woke up right.
Taylor D. Adams:I had.
Taylor D. Adams:I had this hope, and Then I woke up when he rode past, I seen he was carrying fire In horn, the way people used to do, and I I could see the horn from the light inside of it about the color of the moon. And then the dream. I knew that he was Going on ahead. He's fixing to make a fire somewhere out there, and all that dark and all that cold, I knew that whenever I got there he'd be there. Then I woke up.
Tricia Aurand:Which is very sad, but Again is something that a lot of people walk around every day. Most people do. I'm holding on to that same hope because it's much easier. It's much easier than just like living in like the darkest, most nihilistic.
Taylor D. Adams:Right it's a lot of us sleep better when we are, when we think there might be meaning at the end of it all yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree 100%, like I think I've heard, If I heard if I heard correctly, I was really listening to the behind-the-screen play episode on this movie and I believe you said something along the lines of that every time you watch this movie, that kind of the philosophy of it has hit you in a Different way, has affected you in a different way.
Taylor D. Adams:Based on your most recent rewatch what? What is that effect?
Tricia Aurand:Mmm, I Think I've ultimately probably drawn similar conclusions about the world to the Coen brothers. Like I guess, I probably am a nihilist at heart, but I Think that the Coen's, at least in this movie, portray the reality of like that meaninglessness as something deeply tragic and also deeply difficult, like this movie is designed to make it hard to accept, even if it is crystal clear right, like the philosophy of the movie in my mind is crystal clear in where the movie lands on everything. But the movie makes it it like, as I said, it really wrestles with it. It is not cheaply arrived at and like I don't know. I think, yeah, the one of the scenes that struck me this time is the one after the car accident and and the two boys come up.
Taylor D. Adams:Are you all right? Got a bone sticking at your arm? What did you take for the shirt? Hell, mister, I'll give you my shirt. Look that fucking bow. Tie this one. Just tie it, just tie it.
Taylor D. Adams:Oh.
Taylor D. Adams:Hell, mister. Okay, I don't mind helping someone out. It's a lot of money, take it, take it. You didn't see me, I was already gone.
Tricia Aurand:He takes the money anyway, even though he was perfectly willing to give away the shirt on his own back to a psychopathic killer who unfortunately survived a car accident. I was so mad when he walked away from that car. I think the first time I saw this movie I was like how dare you, cohen, I. But what? Some of the audio that we hear as sugar is walking away is that the two boys start to argue about the money.
Taylor D. Adams:Oh, yeah, yeah they do.
Tricia Aurand:So it's like, you know, caleb Landry Jones goes like half that money is mine and he's like, well, but you still have your, your damn shirt, like they immediately start arguing about the money and I think it's really the greed that's present in this movie. It's interesting those two scenes, the one with the boys who give sugar their shirt and then the one with the, the young men on the bridge when Llewellyn buys the coat off the guys that are coming back from Mexico. Those scenes are really similar and the greed that's already like in the hearts of these, like young men, yeah, they represent, you know, the next generation and all we see from them is like greed and opportunism and the movie is Very careful to depict that as being the world that, like Llewellyn and sugar, live in. Again, it's very dark, but I there's, there's this.
Tricia Aurand:I think the movie understands or or wants you as an audience member to feel the tragedy and like the sadness of how dark it all is, whereas in some of their later movies the one they made right after this, the Coen's made burn after reading, and that movie is also about nihilism and senseless violence and like just sheer chaos and confusion and greed. It's about all the same things in so many ways. However, it's all played for laughs in that movie and it they do not seem to think it is tragic or sad in that movie, or at least that movie doesn't seem to think that all the nihilism is tragic or sad. And so I like this movie. I I like the gravity that this movie has. I think it's more difficult for me when it's like all just supposed to be funny. It's. It's all played for comedy in that movie and that to me is even sadder somehow.
Tricia Aurand:Like at least no country for old men. The Coen's are like it's all meaningless and isn't that awful and isn't that difficult, isn't that hard to wrestle with? And then like, literally two years later they were like it isn't that hilarious. I'm like it's a quick, it was a quick turn there.
Taylor D. Adams:On the same, the same thematic conclusion, very different film hmm, so so, as someone who is, I guess, a nihilist at heart, use your words. What is it like? Being a nihilist at heart is also apparent.
Tricia Aurand:And also a parent. Oh god, you really. You really came with the easy questions today, tay. Well, first of all, I want to say that I was raised very conservatively and my family's very Christian and, and my, my family now that I have and am raising, we all go to church every Sunday and we are still Christian. Lot of there's like a big asterisk and a long footnote After that word. I just want to say that.
Taylor D. Adams:I don't have time to get into no, no, totally cool, you don't have to justify your faith to me.
Tricia Aurand:I'm just curious, well, what I'm saying is what I'm saying is you know, these days, when people ask me, I usually say that I'm a Christian nihilist, which is not a thing, because those two things fundamentally can't don't really exist together. But what I mean is that some days I'm a Christian and some days I'm a nihilist. I got you and so.
Tricia Aurand:But I think I think the thing that you know, if you Do what this movie compels you to do, or If you fully to me when I fully understand it, and read its text all the way down, if you then look straight at all of the Darkness, chaos, you know the nihilism of the world and the meaninglessness of all of it. Probably you still, you still are. I'm gonna go with blessed or gifted with life now and Like we are not at the end yet, you know we are not at Tom Bell, we are not given the luxury of hanging up our spurs. I guess you can, in your own, like little heart, hang up your spurs, but you are here now and you have to live as though your choices matter, because there's no other way to live with the nothingness, if you don't pretend at least that they matter. And you know I have. I have two boys and I. I Get to make choices In raising them and also getting just to spend time with them because they rule. I get to make choices that matter in the here and now. Do they ultimately matter? Probably not, but can they mean something to me now, right now, today, and in the very, very short course of our own lifespans.
Tricia Aurand:Then yes, and I hope that my sons draw meaning out of narrative, the narratives that you know, maybe we construct and are maybe a false hope or or just sort of like a, an Unknow what. They have unknowable conclusions, right, but that doesn't mean that they can't Do a lot of useful things in the present. Stories, do a lot of useful things in the present, even if all of it, you know, even if the structure of narrative suggests that there is meaning where perhaps there ultimately isn't. The meaning that we find in the structure of narratives does matter because it informs the way that we live and we can live toward ideals and in line with values that Are meaningful to the people and the communities that we live with, and and so like, long after we are gone, long after in this movie, long after Ed Tom is gone and the West and all of these, you know the, the world of the story that stands in for our world.
Tricia Aurand:Long after that Like is gone, the choices that we make will Do affect people that live on after us, right, and the shapes that stories and the world will take. So you know we can, we can't Create, like, some kind of cosmic justice where there isn't any at. Tom tried in this movie and failed, and I Lord knows that I would absolutely fail if I tried to create some kind of cosmic justice. But I can create this much more justice, probably in my own life and by using my life to advocate for this much more justice in my community, and I can teach my boys to do that too, and and that's something that I really hope for. So that is hope. It's just not of the Grand, you know, afterlife variety.
Taylor D. Adams:No, I, I think that's, I honestly think that's a great answer, but you know what can one, you know what can one person do in the scheme of a whole, whole System, or life, or universe, or whatever like that.
Tricia Aurand:so those I think, those concentrating on the moments, I think, is a perfect answer well, and if you happen to be in the arts, you know everything that everyone does for the record, like, creates a narrative and leaves behind a narrative the story of someone's life. Anyone's life Leaves behind a narrative that continues to affect the people that knew them. However, if you are in the position of writing yours down or Painting it into a picture, or snapping it in a photograph, or putting it in a song or a play or whatever it is, if you happen to be in that position, then it's not just you know, it's not just your life, it's the things that you make that can continue to do In theory, do some good or Shape the world towards more, towards what we want it to be in the here and now. So that's also something that I have hoped for this entire conversation has been awesome.
Taylor D. Adams:I'm really grateful you decided to come on the podcast and talk about one of your favorite movies of all time.
Tricia Aurand:Oh well, I mean, you didn't have to tell me that I love this movie.
Taylor D. Adams:Outside of all the technical and structural nerdy film stuff, the messages and Struggles this movie has us think about our well worth pondering, I think. How do we grapple with the changing world that we don't understand? What good can we do in each moment of our lives? Why can't everyone value what I value? I'm surprised a movie can keep me on the edge of my seat while Simultaneously having me question my own personal philosophy. It's kind of bonkers, but in a way that I really, truly Appreciate, and if you've seen this film and I hope you have by now I hope you have that appreciation about it too.
Taylor D. Adams:A huge thanks to Trisha for chatting with me about one of her favorite movies of all time and a Suitcase full of money-sized. Thank you to you for listening today. Please take a look at the show notes for links to some of Trisha's work and please check out her podcast Beyond the Screenplay with her fellow hosts Brian Bitner and Alex Kairos and Michael Tucker for conversational, deep dive analysis of some of your favorite films. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please go ahead and subscribe on your favorite platform of choice and if you happen to be listening on Apple podcast, go ahead and leave a rating and review so it gets us noticed by more awesome folks like yourself. If you want to help the show grow and want to get some access to some really cool perks, please consider supporting the film this podcast on patreon. You can visit patreoncom slash film nuts or check out the link in the description below.
Taylor D. Adams:Our theme this season is brought to us by the Deep End. Our artwork is designed by Modunga Sibuhudi and all episodes of the film this podcast are produced and edited by me, taylor De Adams. If you want to get in touch, you can email film nuts podcast at gmailcom or follow us on Instagram, tiktok and Twitter at film nuts podcast. And don't forget to join the nut house discord community absolutely free by checking out the link in the show notes. Thank you all so much for listening today. I really do appreciate it and here's hoping the decisions you make or the things you create help shape our world in a more positive way. Thank you.