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The Film Nuts Podcast
Your host Taylor D. Adams talks to artists, musicians, writers and others about their favorite films and shows, and asks them to share how they have been inspired or affected. Hopefully we can get to the root of why we love what we watch, why we’re crazy about a movie or *nuts* about a show…get it?
The Film Nuts Podcast
KILLING EVE with Victoria Bouloubasis
Victoria Bouloubasis, Emmy-nominated journalist and documentary filmmaker, shares how the BBC series "Killing Eve" provided a necessary escape from her intense work documenting marginalized communities.
• Killing Eve presented a perfect contrast to Victoria's documentary work by offering pure entertainment without heavy social messaging
• The show's first two seasons captivated with strong performances, especially Jodie Comer's theatrical portrayal of Villanelle
• Victoria discusses how the series declined after original showrunners Phoebe Waller-Bridge and Emerald Fennell departed
• The cat-and-mouse dynamic between Eve and Villanelle created tension that worked best when they remained in pursuit of each other
• Growing up surrounded by strong Greek women influenced Victoria's focus on female-centered storytelling
• Documentary filmmaking requires building genuine trust with subjects, particularly when entering communities not your own
• Sometimes allowing ourselves pure entertainment provides creative inspiration and necessary mental relief
Victoria's documentary "The Last Partera" will be screening at the Carolina Theater on September 18th. Get your tickets here!
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I think about you too.
Speaker 2:I mean, I masturbate about you a lot. Okay, that too much. No, that's just, I wasn't expecting that. I don't have a TV, but I have a projector. You know, it took up my entire living room wall and it was just like I was like immersed in this world. It became a show that I would just like unwind from my day and like and like the crazy real life stories I was hearing and like decompressing. And then it became a show where I would just like have it on on my laptop while I was folding laundry and like half pay attention to. I wanted to watch it. I didn't want it on while I was doing other things.
Speaker 1:Hey folks, welcome back to the Film Nuts podcast, a show about why we love what we watch. My name is Taylor D Adams and I'm so happy you decided to join us today. So, as you can hear or see, I'm in a little bit of a different location right now. I'm in the back of my house looking out into the backyard, and there's a reason why I'm doing this. So I'm actually a little nervous about this episode for a few reasons. First off, in contrast to what we normally do on the show, today we're going to be giving praise and criticism to a television show. We haven't done something like this since our episode on Star Wars, Episode 8, the Last Jedi. Secondly, I'm chatting with a Emmy-nominated journalist who has done incredible work on food, labor and immigration, and so I'm a little nervous and self-conscious about my interviewing chops myself. And lastly, I wanted to do something a little different setting-wise, so I decided to film in my backyard and currently, where I'm sitting at the moment of recording this little introduction, I am not actually in my backyard because it's raining, cats and dogs outside. But anyway, despite all these worries and concerns, you're here watching or listening to this in the comfort of your own home, or maybe you're in your car or walking your dog, or maybe you're actually sitting on the toilet, I don't know. I don't care. I just am so glad that you decided to join us today and I hope you enjoy the show.
Speaker 1:Anyway, how do we deal with the bleakness that surrounds us? How do we cope with the injustices of the world? What can temporarily free us from this omnipresent heaviness? Watching a stylish and witty cat and mouse game between an intelligence officer and assassin might be a good start. The series Killing Eve starring Jodie Comer and Sandra oh was a colorful, escapist breath of fresh air for my guest today that lightened the load after diving deep into her work as an investigative reporter. Victoria Bulubasis is a journalist and filmmaker who found comfort in Killing Eve, at least for the first two seasons. It was, as she put it, almost the opposite of the work she does, and as much as she enjoyed the show, she did have a few issues as the series went on. Today we expand on that the responsibility of documentary filmmaking, her courses at Night School Bar, where we both teach, and the value of pure entertainment. And with that I sincerely hope you enjoy Victoria Bulubasis talking about Killing Eve on the Film Nuts podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm well. I was telling you that I took yesterday off. It was a Thursday.
Speaker 1:That sounds nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I needed to jump into the ocean and so I just drove out there and spent the day. It was nice. I went in twice and got to swim around a bit.
Speaker 1:It just feels like really grounding to float somehow Is that something you did frequently like growing up is expose yourself to the ocean, or Um.
Speaker 2:Hmm, I don't know, my, my maternal grandmother is. She was from an island, a Greek Island, um, and so there's like something there. I'm a water sign, so there's something there, I guess. But yeah, there's something grounding to me about the salt water in particular, like we need salt and we need water for life, and it's just like there's something literally essential about it for me.
Speaker 1:No, I feel you. I admittedly haven't been in an ocean a couple years and it feels like there's something missing, I feel like I need to go out there sometime this summer and just dive in? Do you just dive in, get a quick soak in and jump back out, or are you swimming around and spending a fair amount of time while you're in the water?
Speaker 2:It depends. I mean, I think I'm such a brat about it. Nothing compares to grease and you can see the bottom of the ocean when you're just like floating around in there and like the water is just perfect. It's a little bit, it's not chilly, but it's not hot, it's not murky, it's just very, very salty. So you can just sort of float and I get really wrinkly when I'm in there. But here it depends. I do like the waves but I'm not like a water sport person. I just like to be immersed in this like unknown vast space. That is very something to be fearful of, but like I don't know, it's just really beautiful to me and I also really enjoy um, seafood and that whatever comes along with that culture.
Speaker 1:So yeah, no, I mean strong connection to any part of the earth. I feel like it's, it feels good to have, like it feels grounding, whether it's literal ground, like if you go out and lay in the grass here, or if you just like swim in the ocean.
Speaker 2:Yeah so.
Speaker 1:I get that and yeah, I'm one of those people where whenever I go like snorkeling or something like in the Caribbean and it's real deep, I really enjoy looking just straight down.
Speaker 2:I know it's wild.
Speaker 1:It freaks my partner out. She's like I don't, I don't want to see, I don't want to see how blue it gets and how forever it goes on how forever that's.
Speaker 2:That's it, yeah, and there's a whole other world under there that we're not privy to.
Speaker 1:Yeah at all yeah, um, I don't want to find out. It seems like things are scary down there it does I mean?
Speaker 2:I remember I remember watching Little Mermaid as a kid and not remembering the plot at all, but just that, just like the underwater parts, yeah, and I'm not necessarily somebody that wants to like scuba dive and find out, but I'm really fascinated by it and I recently watched it with my niece, who's three, and we watched the original because even that, like the eels, are scary, and Ursula parts, oh yeah, and I heard that the like live action one was scarier for a three-year-old so we started with, like the traditional Disney one, which was very problematic in many ways um but no now she's really yeah, but she's really into like pretending like she's the little mermaid and like she ate an oyster for the first time and then, um, she ate mussels the other day like she's, we're just like exploring, like sea things like.
Speaker 2:I picked up a couple shells to give her, like ocean treasures. She loves carolina beach herself. Okay, she's always talking about it. So, um, yeah, I don't know. There's just such a mystery to it and, granted, like everything, I can do research and figure it out, but yeah, kind of like keeping that sort of imaginative mystery in my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah damn. This should be an episode on the little mermaid place no, I mean it's really like, not an like.
Speaker 2:I would just go in on how sexualized they made this young woman in the disney cartoon.
Speaker 1:That's yeah disney problems there's a lot disney problems.
Speaker 2:Hashtag disney problems well, I'm it.
Speaker 1:It's great that you're here. I'm so excited that we finally got to schedule this. I'm glad you're enjoying some time at the beach and that's great. I'd like to talk a little bit about your work. So you have a film that is going through the festival circuit right now. I would like to know a little bit more about it.
Speaker 2:Sure, it is the first feature film I directed. It's called the Last Partera Partera means midwife in Spanish, and it's a film I made with my friend and co-director, ned Phillips, and he originally encountered this story in Costa Rica while he was visiting friends Through like a circuit of this person knows this person, a midwife named Miriam Elizondo, or, respectfully, she's called Doña Miriam, and she was the last living traditional midwife in her region. So we spent about eight years at least sort of chronicling, is that how you pronounce it?
Speaker 1:Chronicling.
Speaker 2:Chronicling yeah, there you go, but there's no extra vowel there. Chronicling, anyway, it's.
Speaker 1:CL yeah. Documenting the story Anyway.
Speaker 2:Her life, her life's work towards the end of her life, um, and the influence that she has on other women and sort of. For me it was um, this essence of like feminism before it existed as a term, and something she would have never described herself as a feminist. Um, she's very traditional, very catholic, um, very much believe in women's power. But like that term and like the modern use of it would not probably resonate with this woman. But it just shows that, like women, caring for each other in community is a form of feminism that's always existed.
Speaker 2:Um, and so, yeah, it was a beautiful story. For me, it felt somewhat personal as well, because on my other side, my dad's mom was a midwife in his village, um, and he grew up in a mountain village similar to the one we were visiting and documenting. Um, and you know, in his life didn't have running water. Actually, I think I don't remember this much, but when I was two, I went to Greece for the first time and I still don't think they had running water in the village. Um, and my mom said like we'd go to the well and um, bring water and heat it up for me to take a bath.
Speaker 1:Wow. Yeah, but then the next time I went there I was seven and they had it so so I feel like from the work you do and the films and art you appreciate like there's very much a woman focus, a women focus around these kinds of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wonder why. Yeah, I wonder why focus around?
Speaker 1:these kinds of things. Yeah, I wonder why. Yeah, I wonder why. But pivoting from that, yeah. Why did you want to talk about killing Eve?
Speaker 2:I've been racking my brain thinking about this and I don't think it's as obvious as like, oh, there's centering like a woman's story or, like you know badass women, assassins or psychopaths, which they both are, um, I think, I think for me my work is very rooted, like there's a reality baseline to it, um, and I can get creative about telling a true story, whereas I think what I really enjoy about killing Eve is it's not that at all.
Speaker 2:It's very much like an escapism, you know, as an art form, and I started watching it during the pandemic and during that time I was doing a lot of reporting on, like all the shit that was going down in marginalized communities and doing a lot of hard emotional work in my reporting, talking to undocumented workers who were getting sick, who had family members dying from COVID, were not feeling protected at work and were essential workers but not getting stimulus checks and, like you know, just all these systemic inequities that exist that were really brought to the forefront and unveiled during the early pandemic especially, and so killing Eve was none of that, stop it.
Speaker 1:I just want to have dinner with you, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:You know, I could just like turn it on and turn off my brain but still feel enthralled by like this interesting drama, which we can get to this later. But like season one was the best, season two was great and then the rest was really bad.
Speaker 1:So I think you know, I agree, I agree with you, yeah, yeah, and I think you know this from my classes I'm always like putting something in there, like I don't really bad.
Speaker 2:So I think you know, I agree, I agree with you, yeah, yeah, and I think you know this from my classes.
Speaker 1:I'm always like putting something in there, like I don't really like to. Just you never tell us what that is. You're just like afterward be like what do you guys think I don't like this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't like this and I wanted to know if I wanted y'all to convince me otherwise.
Speaker 1:Yes, like this. You know, anything we watch that is outside of our world, like our reality, is this form of escapism. Was there something specific about this plot, this story that, like, triggered that sense of escapism for you Other than like you? I mean, I don't know if you're an assassin, or not, but I'm assuming that's not your life.
Speaker 2:You'll never know. Is there something that like triggered it? I don't know. I mean, is there something that like triggered it? I don't know. I mean, I think, well, it was definitely marketed for the girlies. For example, the fashion Villanelle's fashion is like fucking amazing And-.
Speaker 1:Jodie Comer rocks every look.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in the first season where she's meeting with a counselor for the first time, Thank you for making such an effort, Villanelle. She's wearing this pink Thule dress. Apparently, the designer blew up after that. She's wearing this pink Thule dress and these like black combat style boots, and she's the only color in the room. Everything else feels more muted and drab.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And then she's outside standing and like the dress is blowing in the wind and it's very Carrie and Sex and the City, with like the pink tuli, like the iconic. It's a different style dress but it's like to me I feel like it's a nod to that um, and so it's very like I'm watching a girly show, like it's not, because at first I've never watched anything violent and I didn't grow up watching violent movies. I'm kind of squeamish about that stuff and this really pushed me, like pushed my boundary in that sense. I don't think I need to dig into like any sort of like profound reason why there's, like you know, a queer love story about women and like women doing whatever, like yeah, there's women in this story and I feel like everything is like normalized, but it's still very like there's girly details about it. It's like different from just like being a woman's show.
Speaker 1:I'm a a guy, so this, I'm a guy, so this, uh, this show, marketing wise, was like not targeted toward me, like I saw some advertisements for it, didn't really know what it was. Like I recognize Sandra. Oh, I like her, um, I've seen her in some stuff and I had heard some, just like some film and TV podcasts like recommending this Um, and and TV podcasts like recommending this um, and they provided like their reasons why they like it. And when I found out that it was Phoebe Waller-Bridge that was doing it, I was like, okay, let's give it a shot. And yeah, I was. I was hooked on that first season. I was like this is, this is fun, this is dangerous, this is sexy, it's funny, like it's really.
Speaker 2:It's really funny. It's really funny.
Speaker 1:We all have shows or movies that are, like the marketing is like, targeted toward certain demographic in order to get them to watch, right, but it's fascinating to me when a demographic who is not targeted for this also enjoys it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's not like I was. You know it's not. It doesn't come as a surprise to me that I enjoyed it, because I literally think that first season is excellent television For certain material that would be beneficial for the four quadrants basically to see, but a lot of times it's difficult to get what you want them to see in front of them, or even to get them to press play. Play on it, excuse me. Uh, do you think there's something we can do about that?
Speaker 2:hmm, that's a great question. I don't. It's really hard for me to think along that vein because I feel like everything I do and I enjoy is less I sound like such an asshole less mainstream. But you know what I mean. It's like I'm always drawn to, like I'm not always going to be excited about whatever blockbuster movies out in theaters and like dying to see it, and I just think that, unfortunately for my bank account, my brain doesn't think in a way. That's like how can we market this?
Speaker 1:Right To everyone, yeah, everyone.
Speaker 2:And it's like and I think it's things shouldn't. That's where things get diluted and that's probably why the last two seasons were real shit and like they phoned it in completely.
Speaker 1:Well, Feebwell or Bridge and Emeraldald Fennell weren't involved in the show anymore for those last two, right?
Speaker 2:Nope, they weren't. Yeah, and they really, I think, capitalized on like their love story, but it wasn't fleshed out in a way that felt like enough, like it wasn't smart. I remember they were oh gosh, when Constantine died Stop.
Speaker 1:Stop. No, I have a letter in my bag. Bring it to Karen Martins for me.
Speaker 2:And tell her I always loved her.
Speaker 1:I'm so proud of you. I love that actor. I've seen him in many.
Speaker 2:I think he's my favorite character. I mean, it's hard to compete with Villanelle, but I love him so much, I love that man so much Like I just want to drink and play cards with him.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:He's amazing. He's so sweet, sweet and I don't know. He's just so good and like that weird chuckle that he has that abrupt, like so good. Um, and their dynamic and chemistry was really wonderful. He and villanelle and the writing, especially in the first two seasons, like helped draw out and develop their arcs. Um, but then when he died, I I liked that. It was sweet that he was trying to save this young woman who was like newly coming in. But I was reading on Reddit at one point about how people were so pissed off that they really loved this actor. But she was, her character was so flat in that last season and they just like introduced her too quickly and then to have her kill him was just like didn't do his character over the four seasons justice and um, I agree with that, but what was the question?
Speaker 1:Well, just keep going, whatever you're doing, I mean, we're talking, we have I think that's a great point that we talk about Constantine. Like there are you know this, this like marketability, like I feel like there might have been an opportunity in some kind of just like you know, you can do marketing materials about anything Like you pop up in Netflix and the algorithm generates the thumbnail that they think you will most likely click on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I don't know.
Speaker 2:Or like the preview, Right right.
Speaker 1:Or some guy somewhere. All he's watching on his queue is like bro-led, like violence movies.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you had Killing Eve come up as a thumbnail and you had Constantine as the thumbnail like would that trigger them to watch it? And then would they be? Would they get engrossed or be upset that they don't that Constantine's not like a main character in this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is so interesting, because I, because even Carolyn Fiona Shaw's- character. I guess I forgot that, like the leads in Power, because Constantine still has like a subversive role within the 12 or whoever he works with. Yeah, but all the characters with Power are women and most of the people being killed are men and you don't, and it is very much for the female gaze. Yes, oh and you don't care. Like you're like. They must have done something to deserve it.
Speaker 1:I mean, sometimes you feel bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, comeuppance, right like yeah, but usually if there's a hit on you, you're like that high up in some corruption yeah, yeah, but then like even like poor Eve's husband, who loves her and is just trying to like understand her and be there, like he's like a throwaway character in many ways.
Speaker 1:How would you kill me? I'd paralyze you with saxotoxin and suffocate you in your sleep, chop you into the smallest bits I could manage, boil you down, put you in a blender, then take you to work in a flask and flush you down a restaurant toilet. You've really thought about that? Smart huh, very sexy hugely. Do you want supper?
Speaker 2:ooh, yes, thank you. Okay, love you, love you. I think what I love about this show, too, is that they're both so flawed from the get-go and they're like the same. They're on the same level.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And just or maybe like on the same spectrum and just different ends of it, but they all Like, they both have like a sort of psychopath, yeah, sociopath I don't know these terminologies it's like they're enough of a mirror of each other for it to be justified that they grow close.
Speaker 1:I mean it feels like feels magnetic, both in the pro and the con, Like a lot of times they're like pushing too close together so they get further apart yeah. And like that was. That was always weird for me to really wrap my head around. It was like I don't understand how the um cooperative romantic relationship develops other than maybe they're they are just like the same person, but just different because, like in my head I'm like I don't feel like this should happen. I feel like this is like toxic, like this oh 100.
Speaker 2:I mean it's like it's just a mutual obsession at the end of the day and like I don't think they actually love each other, like it's definitely a whole series and show and dynamic about the chase, you know yeah, yeah quite literally, but, um, and I think that's why it felt like and dynamic about the chase.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, yeah, Quite literally, but and I think that's why it felt like wah-wah when they like got together. At the end You're just like this is so boring. Yeah, as a viewer it's boring as a story. It's boring Because I was never.
Speaker 1:I was never, ever rooting for them to get together. No, Like I was. Like, I'm enjoying this cat and mouse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like you wanted also. I mean, I'm now I'm just complaining about what's wrong with it, but I never felt fulfilled by Eve's arc and I do think they did a really lazy job Like, ok, you find out that she is like working at a Korean restaurant because she's, you know, has Korean background, but I'm like that is such low hanging fruit, like, but what about her life?
Speaker 2:yeah like just because you're ethnic it doesn't make you whatever. Like it's just like. What about her life drove her to this point to like throw away the good life she had? What about her life made her so obsessive about this particular job that she did? In this work? That she did Because that's relatable for so many of us to just like make our careers our entire personality.
Speaker 2:But like, what about it? Like we didn't get enough of that and I was waiting for it and it's the only reason I kept watching, actually. But it became a show that I would just like unwind from my day. Yeah, and like this the crazy real life stories I was hearing and like decompressing and like I I don't have a tv, but I have a projector, so I would just like every night I'd be like I'm gonna binge a couple episodes, sometimes follow people on the couch, but it was just like you know, it took up my entire living room wall and it was just like I was like immersed in this world.
Speaker 2:And then it became a show where I would just like have it on on my laptop while I was folding laundry and like half pay attention to you know when. Before it was like I think another thing that makes this show so amazing and these actors so amazing Jodie Comer in particular is how theatrical it is. She is so like her facial expressions, and then constantine's character fed into that a lot, whereas like um eve's character was more of like a verbal dynamic with the two of them.
Speaker 2:Ah, yes um and physicality, yeah, but as far as, like the facial theatrical expressions go, like constantine and villanelle, this is just so dynamic and I wanted to watch it. I didn't want it on while I was doing other things, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's funny how I was like we're ragging on the show but I know you're going to talk about the good stuff which you turned around, but it's so funny.
Speaker 2:This is the first show we've had or first episode we've had where someone's like, yeah, I about where someone's like, yeah, I want to talk about this show, but we talk about all the problems I have with it, I mean, but also taylor, I'm very opinionated, but I think that's fair, like I think this is an interesting discussion to have, because I I love the way you put it.
Speaker 1:It turned from a show, you sat down, it took up an entire wall in your house. Basically that's how interested you were in this thing, yeah to something that was just on. It became the background content that we hate to make but sometimes have to make. Yeah, um, and I just think that's that's such a good way to put. It is not like, oh, it's, I'm not enjoying it anymore, I'll stop. It feels like more of an insult that it has become background noise yeah, it has become lo-fi, lo-fi villanelle.
Speaker 2:To study, study, to yeah, like you would like pay attention enough to understand the plot, but then the circuitous like way in which it was ending was not very neat or cohesive because, like the, I actually don't really remember how it ended, didn't? Villanelle dies.
Speaker 1:Villanelle gets shot by a sniper yes, because falls into the river, and then Sandra Oh's character cries yeah, she like screams yeah yeah, yeah and the Carolyn ordered that hit Fiona Shaw.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what was that all?
Speaker 1:about. I mean it's fine, but it was.
Speaker 2:She like screams yeah, yeah, yeah. And the Carolyn ordered that hit Fiona.
Speaker 1:Shaw is yeah, yeah, what was that all about?
Speaker 2:I mean it's fine, but it was just like leading up to that, like they just like tried to like pull us like freaking string cheese or something, but it didn't.
Speaker 2:Nothing stuck, you know, like it was never. But I mean again what I like about the show, like I said, you know, watching it on my living room wall, like it felt very immersive. I like reading about sets and costuming and a lot of what they did for Villanelle's apartment was source like vintage furniture of the place, like when she paris um and like little knickknacks that were sort of everywhere but very representative of the fact that like she had this life, that where she would like collect little things from um. Everything she had was like very ornate. You know, her clothes included, um, like anything that was in her myths felt like special or important, but she had zero attachments as a character. So you're just like living in these contrasts of like yeah, like there was such a choice in like putting everything together for her, but like her character was very I mean not flighty because she was like focused on her missions, but very detached.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what does that say about her character though? That because she is so flighty, she's all over the place Like she is a psychopath that she kind of like not like a pack rat, but she brings these like ornate and fanciful and things to appreciate like closer to her when she could just like leave that.
Speaker 2:She has to get get up and go and leave that apartment yeah, I think for her character there's like like a youthful indulgence um, she's very childlike yes, I was yeah and like, even though she's very strategic and knows exactly what goes on and doesn't fail at enacting her missions, she also has this like wonder about her, like where she's like in awe of things, like it'll be a split second, yeah, um. And then the way she's so silly and always joking and you never know if she's being serious is very childlike, and I think they did do a good job developing her background a bit. It does feel also a little like uh, obvious, it's like she was a Russian gymnast or whatever.
Speaker 2:Like I mean, I grew up in the nineties where, like, we heard all about that stuff during the Olympics, you know it. Just it's felt.
Speaker 1:I grew up in the 90s where, like, we heard all about that stuff during the Olympics yeah.
Speaker 2:You know it just felt I was like OK, but the payoff was amazing, because you know you have this like adult now who was dangerous and quirky and enrapturing, like you wanted to watch her, yeah, and she was really all over the place. So I think, like it's not, I don't see it as like, oh, she's like hoarding things to keep. It's more like, uh, like she's making money doing whatever she's doing. Yeah, I can indulge on this luxury and just like spend it and it doesn't matter what happens to it, because I don't even know what's happening like to my future, like there's no future. Thinking with her right.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like going off of how you were describing. It feels like this she's a kid in a toy shop yeah like, I like this mine, I like this mine, and then she'll lose it in a week. Yeah, not even be concerned about where it went exactly because, because nothing was really like.
Speaker 2:Things were scattered around her apartment. Yeah, um, the countertops had like ornate perfume bottles and little mementos, but there was nothing ever like in its place.
Speaker 1:Were you around a lot of strong women growing up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can you talk to me about it In what way I just I I don't want to. Sometimes I feel like I'm forcing myself to read between lines that are not there. But what I'm genuinely curious about is this and again we talked about how Killing Eve is more of escapism for you. But because of the strong, centered characters that are in this, because of the work and the subjects that you are covering, like I kind of want to know where almost the inspiration for this came from for for a for a focus on female-led stories yeah, um, I mean, I think, yeah, I definitely drew grew up in a culture that is more traditional, um, and I think what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:um, like very centered around family. Uh, not conservative, okay, thank god um, but very centered around um the family unit and like the traditional aspects of like domestic labor, being like women and then working class men, like being at work and providing Um, and you know, I think too when you come from an immigrant household, at least here in the States, but I'm sure it happens elsewhere too Um, it's almost like you hold onto traditions even stronger when you're away from, like, the homeland.
Speaker 2:Okay, um, in order to maintain them and not lose them. Um, so in that sense the women in my family were very much like the center of the home, um, but I still had like very loving relationships with like the men and like my father and grandfather, but the women were like cooking and caring and kind of calling the shots in the home, not like subdued personalities at all. None of the women I also. I was born in New Jersey and for a time when I was a toddler, I lived in a house with my parents, my grandparents and my great grandmother from Greece, so there were four generations in there, and my mother is an only child.
Speaker 2:But she grew up with a lot of cousins, and so her first cousins are very close to her, um, to the point where one of them even came from Greece while they were teens, because her mother my grandfather's sister had died when she was young and so they sent her over here to go to high school okay so my mom almost had like a built-in sister at that point and so, like all of these women and I feel like we birth more women or more girls than boys so all of these women were like, you know, even though they're my mother's first cousins, they're very much like my aunts and so like they're always around and I just like grew up in a space of like cackling and food and dance and singing and gossip and yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and yeah, my parents worked really hard. I was the first to go to college but, like I said, my dad's mom was a midwife in the village and I don't think I don't know anything about that. Like, I think my mom has it on VHS because she took video and I was there. I was a kid Of the conversations I remember having with her. I don't remember her telling me this particular stuff or I just didn't focus on it because I was a child, but my understanding is that, like, she was just not scared and I don't think she was trained, she just was like who else is going to do this? She also grew up an orphan and, like her uncle took her in but she was almost like their um domestic worker, but when he passed she he left her the house, not his kids, um, so she was just like, didn't really have means and, figured it out, married a younger man good for her people said that she was going to be barren.
Speaker 2:She had twin boys Wow, it's a Greek tradition to name your kids starting with the father's side, but she named my dad after her dad, and then the second twin after the holiday, oh, wow. And then she had another boy and named him after the father's side. But she totally broke tradition and, just like, did whatever she wanted. She was really tough but sweet and funny. And my other grandma was the same way, hilarious so, and just like took charge and like told everybody what to do. So in that sense, yeah, and they worked within the systems and cultures that they were brought up in. You know, um, and even my mom, like, she went back to school and got her associates when I was in high school, um, but, you know, as an only child, she got married really young and like, I think part of it was because she wanted her independence. And that was the way, um, and she's always like saying how lucky she is that my dad is like such a great, nice man, because she did not know what she was getting herself into.
Speaker 1:I don't want to come across, when I ask questions, as one of those like really dumb like entertainment reporters who asks like a male actor what's it like? What's it like working with a female director? And they're like, yeah, what it's a director, like what the fuck's the difference? But I think there's. But I'm genuinely curious because I know a lot of the films you've shown at night school bar have female directors. A lot of the work you've done are set around strong female characters and it's not like, why do you do that?
Speaker 2:but I like to know, kind of like where the interest comes from yeah, to begin with it is harder for women in most industries, but in particular in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 2:Um, and you know, we got over that peak of like the me too movement, and so that unveiled even more about the industry and the stakes that women are up against and the like actual abuse that exists in these systems, um, and so I wanted to yeah, I just want to be able to highlight that, like other, there's also a part of me pushing back on, like this traditional way of learning about film in particular. Like I didn't go to film school, I went to journalism school. Um, so I didn't learn about the greats, and when people are telling me, like you should watch this person or you shouldn't, I'm like, but that's another, it's another white male perspective. And so I started, you know, figuring out directors from other countries, but, like in other cultures, and I wanted to learn something, and then I realized that, like, a lot of them are men too, and my best working relationships have been with women colleagues, with women colleagues, and there's like uh an understanding often um of our vision that is just innately there um.
Speaker 2:I have been asked to explain myself more with male colleagues and like my decisions, even if I'm in the director role right, yeah um, in ways that feel like prove it to me, versus like a woman and just two women working together on something and asking each other questions. It's like just feels very rooted in something in um, a baseline understanding yeah um, so yeah, I want to just be able to show and highlight.
Speaker 2:It's interesting. I feel like early on in my career I noticed that I wasn't telling a lot of women's stories, but I think that's because much of my work is centered around immigrant and migrant communities. Ah, and most of the time in certain cultures, the men are the spokespeople for that, or they're like predominantly male workers and like the fields and like the farm work that I've been telling stories about, and so there was a point in my career where I was like why is this happening? And I think I need to do better.
Speaker 1:You primarily work with women and when you were talking earlier about the last Patera and there's the female led community kind of around there, so is that? I mean it feels like it feels like a group of women can better tell a story about like another community of women, like there's kind of like there's two communities kind of working together to like I don't know capture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right moment yeah, and I think, like I mean I go into communities that are not my own and try to view people as collaborators, learn and do the work. Yeah, I don't think that most men who are making films are doing that when they go into whatever community. But especially working with women and I've had, I've been on all women documentary teams where afterwards the subjects and sources were like it's really cool to see a completely woman crew, even though they are not familiar with like this world, like these cameras, but they're like it's really neat to see this and I don't know if I would have been as open if it wasn't you guys.
Speaker 1:I've had like women sources for lack of a better term, right, tell us that, yeah, um, and we just, yeah, we spend a lot of time and then like there's a lot that's understood and so you, we can do more showing than telling, which is like golden rule number one yes um, because we know what we're looking at yeah, okay, there is that that, especially when you're doing non-fiction work, like there's so much trust that has to be developed between film crew and subject, or even if it's just a one, one person, band and subject, and I feel like sometimes they're there that that work isn't there right and you can really feel it like if, as a white guy, if I go, if I go into a community that is not my own, like, let's just say, from a pure story storytelling perspective, what are the odds?
Speaker 1:I'm going in cold, that I'm going to get what is necessary to tell a really good story, exactly like I have to show up like almost without a camera, without anybody, and I have to get to know the people that Well, that's what I do, I know, and that's.
Speaker 2:I think that's that's what's great.
Speaker 1:It's like there's there's so much people don't understand about um documentary work journalism. Is that what the effort that goes into? It is not a date at one day's work.
Speaker 2:Yeah's not one week's work it's not, and I'll get on my soapbox but the capitalist system that we work within does not always allow for, especially in traditional journalism.
Speaker 2:That time, um or I worked on crews where, like I had to fight my director to fund a pre-production trip for, like a very a community that wasn't my own in a state that wasn't my own, like I was. Like we can't just show up that day and just have me, like, call them like these are elders in a community that I need to be face to face with and we need to spend time that and talk about whatever yeah for them to understand my role and for me to explain what this is, the purposes and how they can contribute, before we go.
Speaker 2:And we don't have time and like the news peg is the news peg or whatever, and that's not always the case and often those stories may win awards and do really well. But I'm not going to look back on the story that went the very next day to talk to somebody after, like a flood. Yeah, like you want to watch the films that really interrogate the why and the after math of whatever and like the people's daily lives, and those are the stories you're going to remember yeah, um, back to the show, the whole reason that you are here.
Speaker 1:I feel like we could just keep talking. We can keep talking about this shit for like another two hours this is so like fun and frivolous. I think the the frivolous aspect is why I like this show too yeah, I mean, that's what I was kind of saying earlier there's, there's a lot of, there's's a lot of extra that goes along with this show.
Speaker 2:I have no soapbox about the show.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what's great is like Go for it, please.
Speaker 2:Well, I was just saying as I was prepping for this, I was like I'm wondering if there's something I missed, and so I started watching interviews with the different actors and in 2019, fiona Shaw was interviewed at the Edinburgh Festival asking about why she thought it worked so well the show. And it's 2019, so this is pre-pandemic, pre-race, reckoning all over the place. She was basically saying how like the world is chaos.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In 2019.
Speaker 1:Shocker.
Speaker 2:And this did provide a form of escapism. And she also said it is not politicized, it's about personality, like the plot is about personality.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Which is true yeah we could talk all day about like the themes and like unpack, like the queerness of it or the feminism of it or whatever the mental health aspect, yeah, but it's like really not any of that stuff. It's pure entertainment. That's clever and witty and shot well and beautifully and acted tremendously yeah, first two seasons. But I was like that is probably why I like it too, because I don't allow myself that, even like the other fiction stuff I watch, like there's a message there and you know there are so many things I was telling you that I wanted to Talk about like Reservation Dogs.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, or, which is like probably one of my favorite shows, or Pen15, which would have been like it's such a girlhood movie and like really interrogates, like growing up as a hyphenated American, as a weird kid, as whatever. Yeah, also the fact that they were adults acting with youth was just like so uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so awkward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, acting with youth is just like so uncomfortable. Yeah, it's so awkward, um, yeah, but I then I was like no, I want to talk about killing eve, because it's not any of those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I have to like really think and cry about when you, when you, when you talked about you, don't allow yourself stuff like this. Yeah, what? What does that mean?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think I'm a pretty serious person, even though I'm also very goofy and silly and appreciate that. But like, yeah, like everything I at least everything I do in my work and it's hard not to watch things and compare it to your work or like be inspired, yeah, to do more work, yeah, but everything I do, like I said, is like rooted in this real thing that needs to get out there and this story that needs to be told through the right voice. And I'm not the voice but like I'm the lens and perspective in many ways. But you know, I'm trying to like get other voices out there and it's like really important. And you know I'm reading the news and I'm like, well, they missed this part. So I'm going to do a story about that part.
Speaker 2:Um, and this is none of that and it's great and it's fun. Um, and I guess I don't, because it is something that I could like theoretically, work on a project someday that's fictionalized. Um, and I'm looking at the shots and like wanting to stage my shots that way or whatever. Um, and I'm looking at color palettes and like all of those things. Um, and it's helpful. I can't write somebody's script, but when I'm, you know I started as a writer primarily and still do that type of work. Um, just the way dialogue is juxtaposed with detail is like how I can like write things out and suss it out and in some ways do in documentary script. So it's still like connected in a way and I feel like it gives me permission to think about my work differently, more creatively almost. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one last thing before you go. Do you have a favorite moment or scene from this, from the show?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's like one scene where Villanelle tries to throw Constantine a birthday party and she's got all these balloons and she like dresses up as him.
Speaker 1:What are you doing?
Speaker 2:Happy birthday. It's not my birthday. Dance with me. Turn the music on. Dance with me.
Speaker 1:What are you doing? Okay, lift me, lift me. No, I'm not the best show. No, no.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no. Okay, lift me, lift me. No, I'm not the best show, turn this music off. And he's like it's not even my birthday. She's like well, you never, I don't know anything about you. And their dynamic is really hilarious there. I also love that. Like they could have fallen into the trope of him being a paternal figure, and he's not really. He's still like the buddy uncle who really cares about her and cannot stand her. And so like there's that scene.
Speaker 2:But the very first scene where we see her, we're introduced to the her essence. She's eating ice cream. So she's got that like childlike thing in this very fancy european ice cream parlor. She's in disguise, but we don't know that yet. And she sees a little girl and she's, and when jodie comer smiles her upper lip disappears. It's really silly. It's just like so good.
Speaker 2:So she does that to the little girl eating ice cream. The little girl just stares at her and is like who are you? Yeah, you're weirdo. And then the little girl looks over and starts smiling really big. And she looks and sees the ice cream man give her his teeth when he smiles. So then Villanelle turns and does the same thing in her awkward way because she's like she's clocking in, it's like I should try that and she's trying it. She's very obviously trying something. And then little girl smiles back and she's like, huh, I succeeded.
Speaker 2:This is no dialogue. She goes to pay for her ice cream and she tips the guy real big because he like like gave her something, she got something out of him that she utilized. And then she walks by the girl and smiles and the girl smiles back and then she knocks over the girl's pretty cup of ice cream into her lap and keeps walking no remorse. And you get so much out of that that scene. I love the nuanced, non-dialogue scenes. I'm not used to not asking questions and I want to be like how are you? How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm great, we'll talk we'll do like part part two, where you interview me, yeah yeah, I appreciate you letting me not talk about the show thanks for coming on. This was so much fun.
Speaker 2:I know it was great. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I get so obsessed with the idea that whatever movie or TV show my guest loves has to come from a really deep and insightful place, but honestly, sometimes it's the opposite of that. We're allowed to just be entertained. We're allowed to see the pretty colors, hear the beautiful sounds and just feel the vibe. The world can be heavy, dark and full of despair, so why shouldn't we allow ourselves to experience the things that bring us light? Well, at least for the first two seasons. A huge thanks to Victoria for coming over to the house today and a very special shout out to the awesome Jordan Mills, who was our audio engineer during our chat. And I'm not going to forget to send you as many thanks, as Villanelle has outfits for joining us today. Real quick, before you go, I have a little announcement. I'm going to read it right here, so I don't forget it. If you are local to the Durham, north Carolina area, victoria's film, the Lasttera, is actually going to be screening at the Carolina Theater on September 18th. You can find tickets to that in the show notes. You really should go check it out. Go support Victoria and her team. Seriously, go do it.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed the show today, please go ahead and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform of choice to stay up to date with all of our episodes. And if you happen to be listening to this on Apple podcasts, please, pretty please, leave us a rating and review to help us reach more awesome folks like yourself. As awesome as it is to have local folks like Jordan that I mentioned earlier and Keaton Lesko has helped us out before Uh, they have volunteered to help out on the show, um, and that's really great and I really appreciate them, but other than that, the cost of the show comes out of my own pocket. So if you want to help a guy out, you can support the Film Nuts podcast on Patreon. For more info on that, check out the show notes or visit patreoncom.
Speaker 1:Slash film nuts. Our theme this season is brought to us by J Mac, our artwork is designed by Madungwa Subuhudi, and all episodes of the Film Nuts podcast are produced and edited by me, taylor D Adams. If you want to get in touch, you can email filmnutspodcast at gmailcom or follow us on Instagram and TikTok at filmnutspodcast, and don't forget to join the Nuthouse Discord community absolutely free. It's awesome over there. It's a ton of fun Not just saying that by checking out the link in the show notes as well. Thank you all again. So much for joining us today and until next time. I